Greg Scarlatoiu (pictured left) is executive director
of the Committee for Human Rights in North Korea (HRNK) in Washington and a former Eastern European citizen who witnessed the fall of the Causescu regime. Mr. Scarlatoiu recently sat down with Unification Media Group in Seoul to share his unique insights into life under one totalitarian regime and his tireless efforts to transform another. Below is a transcript of the interview, which has been edited for clarity.
Unification Media Group [UMG]: You are currently the Executive Director of The Committee for Human Rights in North Korea (HNKR). Please introduce your organization to our North Korean listeners.
Mr. Greg Scarlatoiu [GS]: The Committee for Human Rights in North Korea (HRNK) was founded 15 years ago in 2001 and is based in the US. Our board of directors is composed of people from various backgrounds with a keen interest in North Korea human rights, including former high-ranking government officials, entrepreneurs and academics. We founded HRNK because there were hardly any organizations researching human rights conditions in North Korea at the time. Our mission was and is to document human rights conditions in North Korea and publish reports from our findings in order to inform the entire world about the North Korean human rights situation.
UMG: After the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe, you were the first South Korean government-funded scholarship student from Romania to study in South Korea. During that time, you spent 10 years in South Korea and are now devoted to improving human rights in North Korea. What motivated you to become interested in the North Korean human rights issue?
Well to be honest when I first arrived in South Korea, I wasnβt really interested in North Korea because it was just another communist country like Romania. At the time, I thought North Korea would naturally follow the collapse of the Eastern bloc and the old Soviet Union, which, of course, it did not. Then came the widespread famine known as βThe Arduous March,β and it was this tragedy that ignited my interest in human rights conditions in North Korea. Romania and North Korea have their differences but also share many similarities, so having lived under similar conditions in Romania for 20 years and on a divided Korean peninsula for 10 years, I naturally became personally invested and it fueled my desire to research North Korea.
UMG: As you mentioned, Romania was a harsh dictatorship, much like North Korea. I imagine the people of Romania must have been severely oppressed right up to the revolution that eventually brought down the dictatorship. Do you have any memorable experiences from that period of time?
GS: Dictatorships sustain themselves by controlling and suppressing the people. Romania was no different, and was a very oppressive and grim country in the 80s. It was a difficult time and the most difficult thing was the inability to trust each other. My parents and grandparents always told me, βYou never know where informers are lurking, so donβt trust anyone and especially donβt trust your close friends at schoolβ. Itβs hard to imagine such a society existed.
UMG: Itβs known that Nicolae Ceausescu modeled Romania on Kim Il Sungβs North Korea. Was surveillance in Romania as severe as that of North Korea?
GS: Yes, Ceausescu visited North Korea in 1971 and wanted to change Romania into something akin to North Korea. Ceausescu applied North Koreaβs Juche ideology and the deification of the leader in Romania. During this period of time, Ceausescu intensified surveillance and attempted to change the Romanian capital of Bucharest into a city similar to Pyongyang. He spoke in front of thousands of people as they cheered and worshiped their dictator. To create and maintain this atmosphere he needed a lot of money, therefore Ceausescu was heavily borrowing money from overseas. All the money went towards forced and unnecessary industrialization, and constructing massive roads and enormous buildings rather than improving the quality of life for his people.
At the time, Romanians were receiving news about the outside world and Ceausescuβs actions by listening to radio broadcasts from Voice of America (VOA) and Radio Free Europe (RFE). So Ceausescu used the Securitate [Department of State Security] to monitor, oppress and control the people. Official figures claim there were approximately 14,000 members of the secret police but according to unofficial sources, the numbers were unfathomable. It was also very common for people to spy and report on their neighbors. At the time, the population of Romania was around 23 million and about 500,000 people were informants for the government. Personally I think it was a national disgrace. Looking back, Romania was a bleak and dangerous place, a place without hope or future.
UMG: Eventually, the dictatorship fell. Ceausescu was sentenced to death and subsequently executed. What went through your mind at the time?
GS: At the time, the majority of Romanians including myself were elated. In retrospect, you could say Ceausescu was executed without due process, much like the very people he oppressed and executed under his rule. However, there was no other way at the time. Even though we did not uphold the rule of law, I still believe those revolutionaries responsible for bringing down the regime were very courageous people. It was imperative that we remove the dictator, or else thousands of innocent people would have lost their lives. Also, if we hadnβt removed Ceausescu, civil war could have erupted. If one supreme ruler maintains decades of absolute rule, the ruler must be removed in order to have a successful revolution.
UMG: In your opinion, what ultimately motivated the Romanian people to revolt and bring down the regime?
GS: I think Romanians and North Koreans are quite similar, we bide and bite our tongue until we suddenly explode. So an explosion of emotions harbored towards the oppression and the dictatorship fueled regime change in Romania. Romania was in a precarious situation between the 70s and the 80s due to Ceausescuβs foreign debt I mentioned. He borrowed a lot of money trying to instill a Romanian-style Juche in the people. He forcibly industrialized the country and nurtured notoriously inefficient industries. Furthermore, he adopted a distorted export-only policy to pay off these debts (and also to acquire sufficient funds for industrialization). Simply put, everything was exported and imports were blocked. The people were left with no food as all produce was exported overseas. The situation was akin to the North Korean public distribution system, and the people had no choice but to line up for hours to buy daily necessities and food, and it got to the point where the government could no longer supply electricity.
Despite these hardships, we managed to pay off our foreign debts. Obviously this didnβt improve the lives of the people, but we did find some glimmers of hope for the future. Then Ceausescuβs next move took that glimmer of hope away. Ceausescu, in collaboration with Libyaβs Gaddafi, attempted to establish an βinternational development bankβ. The intention was to to compete with the World Bank, established by the West. So they were planning on investing obscene amounts of money to βcompeteβ against the World Bank. This was sheer madness, meant only to maintain these dictators in power.
The people felt hopeless as they watched this situation unfold. Nobody could see an end to Ceausescuβs oppressive regime and his lavish expenses. Eventually, the little hope we had exploded into anger. Also, Romanians felt a systematic change was needed after witnessing the fall of neighboring communist states, but no one thought the regime would collapse until the very end.
UMG: How would you compare the current North Korean regime to Ceausescuβs Romania?
GS: Romania and North Korea were very similar right up to the late 1980s. Perhaps if Ceausescu maintained his regime and achieved a second generation succession of power, I believe Romania would be the closest country in the entire world resembling North Korea. There is a key point to take away from the case of Romania: no dictatorship lasts forever. Living under an absolute dictatorship denying democracy and human rights can make you believe it may last forever, but from my experiences in Romania I can say with 100% confidence that no dictatorship is immortal.
UMG: What is HRNKβs assessment of the human rights conditions in North Korea? Are there signs of change since the Kim Jong Un regime has come into power?
GS: There are no measurable signs of improvement. Security on the North Korean-Chinese border has intensified and, as a result, we saw a decrease in the number of North Korean defectors. Prior to 2011, around 2,800 North Korean defectors per year would settle into South Korea, however that number has been halved since the death of Kim Jong Il. The number of defectors decreased to 1,500 within a year. Also, North Koreaβs political prisons have expanded. They have shut down the detainment centers around the border areas and expanded inland political prison camps, especially Camp 14 and 25.
UMG: Among various human rights violations being committed by the North Korean regime, the issue of freedom of information has come under heavy scrutiny. Are North Koreans guaranteed their basic right to information?
GS: No, not at all. North Korea has a responsibility to comply with various international laws and the UN declaration of human rights as a UN member nation. Also, the North Korean constitution stipulates that the State must guarantee freedoms, such as freedom of religion and association, but North Koreans are oblivious to these rights. This is the reality for North Korea and is a fundamental reason why we must push for freedom of information and rights to information for the North Korean people.
UMG: Many believe international support is necessary to guarantee the right to information for the North Korean people. What can the international community do to secure this right for North Koreans?
GS: The only people that can change North Korea are not the people of South Korea or the U.S. but North Koreans themselves. We (the international community) can help the people of North Korea by disseminating information into North Korea. We must send information into North Korea through various mediums, such as radio broadcasting and USB drives, in order to secure rights to information and freedom of information for North Korean residents. In terms of content to be delivered, I would recommend three strategic objectives.
First, we must explain the concept of human rights. The majority of North Koreans do not understand the notion of human rights. We need to inform North Koreans, in an accessible and simple way, about what their inherent rights are as a human beings and what kind of rights are guaranteed by the North Korean constitution.
Second, we must send them news about the outside world, especially about South Korea. More and more North Koreans have access to outside information due to the informal marketization of the country but North Korea still remains the most isolated country in the world. We need to provide North Koreans with information about the outside world, especially information about a prosperous and democratic South Korea.
Third, we need to inform ordinary North Koreans on the corruption of senior North Korean officials, especially about the corruption of the Kim family. If we can deliver information along these three directions, I believe it will enhance the awareness of North Koreans and steer North Korea toward a positive path.
UMG: Could the truth shift public perception among North Koreans?
GS: One of North Koreaβs fundamental problems is the low degree of social cohesion due to the oppressive social climate generated by harsh surveillance and punishment. Therefore, it is very difficult to find an agent for change across society. However if more North Koreans are becoming awakened to the truth, they can change North Korea and provide the opportunity to steer the country towards a positive direction. This wonβt be an easy task but if they can foster a positive sense of awareness and increase the degree of social integration, I believe they can pave the way for a promising future.
UMG: Iβm aware that The Committee for Human Rights in North Korea endeavors to advance the right to freedom of information for the North Korean citizenry. What does HRNK have planned for the future?
Our main objective at HRNK is to document and research the situation in North Korea and publish reports. We report the results from our research to governments all over the world, including the U.S. Congress, and various organs and agencies of the UN. Our reports comprise important information related to North Korean human rights. Unfortunately, our reports are currently inaccessible to the people of North Korea, who need this information more than anyone. We are currently working alongside the international community to condense the reports and deliver that content in a way that will allow North Koreans better access to information.
UMG: Sadly, the majority of South Koreans are relatively apathetic toward North Korean human rights and/or unification. What does improving human rights in North Korea mean to you?
GS: I didnβt personally participate in the movement to bring down the violent Romanian dictatorship. I did join in towards the very end of the revolution, but I was too young and too frightened to take action. Koreans use the expression βhanβ to express solidarity for deep resentment, and I feel that now, thinking of the Romanian revolution. I harbored deep resentment towards the Ceausescu regime, but was not wise enough or brave enough to take action. I would say that my way of dealing with the βhanβ thus created has evolved into a deep interest in North Korean human rights, and now Iβm working towards improving human rights in North Korea. I couldnβt really make a difference in communist Romania. Perhaps I can be one of many who can make a difference in North Korea today. I think North and South Koreans are destined to reunify and if we are to achieve unification, there is a need to change the fundamentals of the North Korean regime, and human rights is at the forefront. This is why I will not give up on North Korean human rights. As I mentioned earlier, no dictatorship can last forever.
